A link to the new MLB rules for 2023 will help you enjoy the games even more. Keep in mind too that the “ghost runner” rule in extra innings is also now a permanent rule change.
Tag: WCCO
Sid – A Minnesota sports legend gone at the age of 100
Sid Hartman a Minnesota legend and Minnesota sports columnist, radio personality and an old-school home team booster who once ran the NBA’s Minneapolis Lakers and achieved nearly as much celebrity as some of the athletes he covered died at the age of 100 on October 18, 2020 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Sid was born in Minneapolis on March 15, 1920. His Father, Jack Hechtman, was born in Russia and immigrated to the United States at age 16, changing his name to Hartman after he arrived. Sid Hartman’s mother, Celia Weinberg, immigrated to the United States from Latvia at age nine. Sid grew up in a Jewish family in North Minneapolis and by the age of nine was selling newspapers.
From a humble start selling newspapers on the street in 1928, he wrote about sports for the Star Tribune for the ensuing decades. At the age of 100 he was still writing three columns a week with his final one appearing on the day he died. According to a count by Star Tribune staffer Joel Rippel, Hartman produced 21,235 bylined stories in his career, from 1944 until the one that ran on C2 of Sunday’s Sports section. This, in addition to his various sports gigs on WCCO radio for 65 years and participating in a TV Sports panel for over 20 years.
Sid was one of those people that everyone in Minnesota knew by just his first name, kind of like Kirby, Harmon, and Bud. Sid obviously led an interesting life in which he worked to the very end in a job that he loved. No many of us get to spend a life doing something we love to do. Having said that, he was also very good at what he did and he had an unbelievable work ethic. No one worked harder than Sid to get a story and he loved to be the first to break a story and there are numerous stories floating around about what he would do to make sure that happened.
Notes from the Twins Game Notes
The Twins open the 2018 season with 13 players on their 25-man roster who were not on the Twins 2017 Opening Day roster: pitchers (9) – Jose Berrios, Zach Duke, Trevor Hildenberger, Tyler Kinley, Lance Lynn, Gabriel Moya, Jake Odorizzi, Addison Reed, and Fernando Rodney; catcher (1) – Mitch Garver; infielders (2) – Ehire Adrianza and Logan Morrison; outfielder (1) – Ryan LaMarre.
Of the 25 players on the Twins active roster, 11 began their professional careers in the Twins organization. Tyler Kinley is the only player looking to make his major league debut. The oldest on the club is Fernando Rodney (41 years, 11 days) and the youngest is Gabriel Moya (23 years, 2 months, 20 days).
Zach Duke was signed to a one-year contract December 28, Tyler Kinley was selected in the Rule 5 Draft, Lance Lynn was signed to a one-year contract March 12, Jake Odorizzi was acquired via trade with Tampa Bay on February 17, Addison Reed was signed to a two-year contract January 15, Fernando Rodney was signed to a one-year contract (club option in ’19) December 15, Logan Morrison was signed to a one-year contract February 25, Ryan LaMarre was signed to a minor league contract with an invite to spring training November 22. The Twins had just five new players on their 2017 Opening Day roster.
The Twins are returning to their original radio home for the 2018 season in 830 WCCO. The Twins were broadcast on ‘CCO for the first 46 years of their existence from 1961-2006, since then they have been on ESPN 1500 from 2007-12 and Go 96.3 from 2013-17. It is about time!
Source: March 29, 2018 Minnesota Twins Game Notes
Minnesota Twins radio “Dark Ages” finally over
The Minnesota Twins announced today that their radio broadcast have returned to WCCO, 830 on your AM radio dial after an 11 year absence. The 50,000 watt WCCO was the radio home of the Minnesota Twins from the time they moved to Minnesota in 1961 through the 2006 season. The Midwest “Good Neighbor” was outbid for the rights to Twins games after the 2006 season and the Twins switched to KSTP 1500 AM where they stayed for six seasons. KSTP had a decent signal but the station seemed to have no clue on how to promote Minnesota Twins baseball and their in-house broadcasters for pre and post game shows sounded like a bunch of clowns doing rookie league baseball.
The Pohlad family then switched the Twins radio broadcasts to a FM station at 96.3 (that the family bought back in 2007) starting with the 2013 baseball season. Switching MLB broadcasts from AM to FM seemed to be a hot trend at the time. The greedy Pohlads jumped on the bandwagon and figured that they could make more money from ad revenue rather than by selling the rights to Twins radio broadcasts. The Pohlad owned radio station changed call signs over the next few years more often than Paul Molitor brought in relief pitchers and their promotion of Twins games was non-existent on a station that features alternative rock music when the Twins weren’t playing. If the Twins were not playing, there was no baseball talk on the station. The station signal was so weak you had to almost stand next to the radio station itself to get a signal. It was almost as if the Minnesota Twins had no radio outlet at all.
The wheels in the Minnesota Twins organization turn ever so slowly and the rights to their radio broadcasts seem to fit right in, it took the organization 11 years to correct their original mistake and make things right again. When the Twins left WCCO it was like their team had lost its major league status and was sent to the minors. Eleven seasons of bush league baseball and now the Minnesota Twins have been upgraded to the major leagues once again, it’s about time. The Minnesota Twins radio “Dark Ages” have finally ended.
WCCO is expected to retain the current Twins broadcasting team of Cory Provus and Dan Gladden who are actually Minnesota Twins employees.
Dozier, Falvey and Levine need to talk
The new Minnesota Twins brain trust got some Twins fans a bit riled up when Brian Dozier was on the WCCO radio Sports Huddle show this past Sunday with Sid Hartman and Dave Mona. Mona asked Dozier if he has been in communication with Derek Falvey and Thad Levine and Dozier’s response was that he has not talked with either one since they were hired but he did his best to sugar-coat the fact that he was disappointed it hasn’t happened so far.
The rumors since the season ended have been that Brian Dozier will be traded. When I first heard the rumor I thought, that is a bunch of crap, why would they want to trade one of their best players?
But let’s get back to Falvey and Levine not communicating with Dozier, to me that is just plain wrong. Here is my thinking, when new management takes over the first thing they should do is listen, listen to what your players and staff have to say. Management needs to get buy-in from everyone, I know it is a new regime but why create problems when you don’t have too. Dozier is a leader on this team and one of its best players, not to mention he still has a very reasonable contract for two more years. Why leave him in the dark even if you are looking to trade him? If a trade doesn’t happen then you have a player that was wronged and that doesn’t help anyone. This isn’t strike one on Falvey and Levine but it is a rookie mistake that they should rectify as soon as possible.
Brian Dozier is one of my favorite players to watch, he hustles and he wants to win, what more can you ask? The team needs a leader and Brian Dozier is the guy that fits that mold the best. I would hate to see Dozier traded but having said that, there is some logic in trading Dozier.
The team lost a team record 103 games and won only 59 times this past season after winning 83 games in 2015. That means they were 24 games worse in 2016 than they were in 2015. I think if you look over history in MLB you will see that it is not all that unusual for young teams to take a dive after taking a big leap forward before resuming their climb upwards. This Twins team still has a lot of holes, don’t get me wrong, but it is not a team that you totally dismantle and rebuild. Yes, the Twins organization is rebuilding the front office but that doesn’t mean a total rebuild is necessary on the field. This is a young team that I expect to be much better in 2017 even if there are no major changes made. They got sand kicked in their face and trampled on in 2016 and they will be out to prove they are not as bad as they appeared to be in 2016.
Since the Twins are really not rebuilding in the normal sense of the word, it is important to add quality players to the mix versus quantity that you might normally look for when trading for youngsters in a rebuilding mode. In rebuilding you want to get as many potential players you can in the hope that one or two hit it big but they are all a gamble for the future. In the current Twins situation if the Twins trade Dozier they are trading a relatively young proven power hitting second baseman who can handle a glove and still has two years left on a good contract and you must get proven big league talent in return. The Twins need players that can play at Target Field in 2017 and not potential players that might play in 2019 or 2020 or beyond. If the Twins trade Dozier for young talent 2 or 3 or more years away you might as will pack it in right now, Target Field will be a ghost town. The Twins have good young talent on the roster, they just haven’t figured out where they need to play to have a chance to be successful.
I know this team lost 103 games this past year but Derek Falvey and Thad Levine are in a good spot, they need to fine tune things, not blow things up.
If you want to listen to the Justin Morneau and Brian Dozier interviews on Sports Huddle you can listen by going here. Listen to the 10 AM portion of the interview.
Looking back to the spring of 1961
When I was growing up on the Minnesota side of the St. Croix River about 70 miles north of the Twin Cities and just starting to follow baseball in the late 1950’s we had no TV at home so my sources of information about baseball were the radio, the Minneapolis and St. Paul newspapers and eventually The Sporting News. My parents were not sports fans and they pretty much felt that my interest in baseball was a waste of time that could be put to better use by doing more tasks around the dairy farm that we lived on.
For those of you that were raised on a dairy farm you know how hard the work can be. You started and finished each and every day in the barn milking the cows. You probably got up about 5 AM and went to bed between 10 PM and 11 PM before you started the process all over again the next day. There is no such thing as an eight-hour day, a sick day, a holiday or a week-end, every day is the same, work on a dairy farm is relentless.
We had a radio in the barn that was always tuned to just one station, 830 on the AM dial, the “Good Neighbor”, WCCO radio. Back then WCCO was one of the premier and most powerful radio stations in the country and in 1961 it became the flag-ship station for the Minnesota Twins. There might as well have been no dial on that old tube radio because the station was never changed, it was our source for news, weather and of course the farm reports but my favorite things on the radio were the Twins games and school closings.
The Minneapolis and St. Paul papers were not delivered out to farm country and we couldn’t afford it even if they did, fortunately our school library subscribed to the morning papers and every chance I had I would go to the library and check out the sports pages. One day I ran across a Sporting News at our local dime store magazine rack, Ben Franklin if my memory serves me correctly and I thought I had died and gone to heaven, page after page of baseball news that was published weekly. It took some time but I finally saved up enough money to get a subscription and I was hooked. Out where we lived there was no mail delivery so we had a PO box in out local community and when my parents went grocery shopping on Saturday’s they would stop off at the post office and pick up the mail and hopefully my copy of the Sporting News, my reading material for the next few days. I would read every single article on every single page, sometimes more than once and during baseball season I would spend hours studying the box scores. I continued to get the Sporting News until I graduated from high school and joined the US Navy. The Navy of the mid 1960’s didn’t share my love of baseball and we had no such thing back then as the internet so baseball and I parted ways for the couple of years that I spent on board the USS Shangri-La (CVA-38).
After my naval career came to an end I returned to Minnesota and started to follow baseball once again but I found that the Sporting News was now writing about other sports than just baseball and I didn’t like that at all and I have not subscribed to the Sporting news since 1965 but I still have some great memories of what has often been described as the Baseball Bible.
Now as the Minnesota Twins prepare for their 56th season I thought it might be interesting to look back in the archives of the Sporting News and see what they had to say about the Minnesota Twins back in 1961 as the former Washington Senators prepared for their first season of baseball as the Minnesota Twins.
When you look back on baseball history some things never change, the players want to be rewarded for their efforts with more money and the owners want to put what they can in their pockets. The process has obviously changed with “holdouts” a term long forgotten and arbitration, free agency, long-term contracts, and opt-outs are the terms we hear and read about every day. The Sporting News page I have for you talks about Jim Lemon‘s holdout, a rhubarb between the Twins and Dodgers, the expansion and new features at Met Stadium and booming Twins ticket sales. I hope you enjoy this trip down memory lane.
Spending some time with Roger Erickson
Back in early December I did an interview with former Twins pitcher Roger Erickson who pitched for Minnesota from 1978 until May of 1982 when the Twins traded him to the evil empire New York Yankees but for a variety of reasons I have not been able to get it out here for everyone to enjoy until now. It was a fun interview and it actually sheds some light on a previous blog that I did almost a year ago called Top Twins rookie starting pitchers about how the Twins abused their young pitchers over the years and shortened some players careers. The right-handed Erickson burst on the Twins scene in 1978 like a comet but injuries cut this young mans career short. Was Erickson just injury prone or did pitching coaches contribute to the problem? Erickson who comes from a family of baseball players had a 31-47 record with a 4.10 ERA in 106 starts in a Twins uniform but these numbers don’t really tell the story of Roger Erickson. I think there is a lesson in this story that tells us “don’t fix what ain’t broke.” Not everyone pitches the same way and teams and their pitching coaches should not try to pigeon-hole these pitchers to pitch in a manner that worked for them and in a manner they perceive to be the correct delivery. But you can make up your own mind about after you listen to this interview. I remember vividly when Roger first came up with the Twins because WCCO radio was the Twins flagship station and I always listened to WCCO. The station had some great personalities on the air back then and the morning show had a couple of characters by the names of Charlie Boone and Roger Erickson, “legends in their own minds” they liked to say. These guys were good and they provided some funny but always squeaky clean entertainment and with the Twins adding Roger Erickson to the team, the radio Roger Erickson used to have a ball with the fact that Roger Erickson the pitcher was having a season to remember during his rookie season in 1978. I guess you had to be there to understand….. So sit back, relax and listen to Roger as he talks about his career, baseball in general, how a black widow spider bite can change your life, and that one day in Spring Training when he thought he had a game winning hit to right field and ended up getting thrown out at first base by Ellis Valentine. You can learn a little more about Roger Erickson and listen to the interview by going here. By the way, if you stop by our Interview Archives page you can check out all of the other interviews we have done over the years.
Happy New Year! Really?
Happy New Year! The temperature here in Minneapolis got down to a minus 8 degrees early this morning but as the calendar turns to a new month and a new year I know that spring training is not that far away. I wish I could be more optimistic about the upcoming Minnesota Twins 2013 season but I find it very hard to do so with the moves or the lack of moves the club has made so far.
The starting pitching is not much to crow about even after the Twins have traded for starters Vance Worley and signed free agent starters Kevin Correia, Mike Pelfrey, and Rich Harden. I don’t think Harden will start more than a handful of games and will pitch primarily out of the bullpen when he happens to be healthy, which his history indicates will be rare. I have very little faith in Pelfrey being much of an improvement over what Nick Blackburn has shown us the last few years plus I am not sure he will even be ready when the season opens. I actually like Correia in the back-end of the rotation and he won’t always be pretty to watch but he has shown that he can win some games having won 10 or more games each of the last 4 years pitching for the San Diego Padres and Pittsburgh Pirates. Worley is an unknown to me but he could turn into the best pitcher on the staff if he is healthy. I was disappointed to hear that Scott Diamond has under gone clean-up elbow surgery and I was really frustrated that the Twins did not resign Scott Baker.
I expect Justin Morneau who is still only 31 to have a very good year, not a MVP type season but back to the numbers that he is capable of putting up and showing a lot of Twins fans that he belongs in Minnesota. The rest of the infield is shaky at best, I am hoping that Brian Dozier can take over and play second base day in and day out. At third base Trevor Plouffe is not the answer either as he has shown he can neither field the position nor can he hit on a consistent basis although he does have some pop in his bat. Todate Plouffe has a career minor league batting average of .257 and with the Twins he is hitting .231 so there is not too much hope there. At shortstop I know that Pedro Florimon has not shown much with his bat but he has a good glove and I think the Twins can live with his stick if they are going to play Plouffe and Dozier in the same infield. The outfield is interesting with no center fielder and I would be surprised if Joe Benson himself coming off a very forgettable 2012 season is not the Twins center fielder when the season opens. Willingham is dismal in left field but the Twins need his power and will be forced to keep him in the line-up. I sure wish they could have traded Willingham coming off his career year but that did not happen. Chris Parmelee will take over right and he is young with a good bat and I think he can become at least an average right fielder. Aaron Hicks and Oswaldo Arcia are hopefully going to be pounding on the outfield door as the season moves along to keep everyone on their toes and that gives me some hope. Doumit is perfect for the DH role although I know that makes Gardy nervous when he has his back-up catcher at DH but realistically, how often will that really be an issue? The Twins might carry a third catcher anyway. You have Joe Mauer catching and your main utility guys are Jamey Carroll, Darin Mastroianni and probably Eduardo Escobar. I am big on experience and when you look at the Twins you don’t see a lot here, only Mauer catching, Morneau at 1B, Willingham in left and Doumit at DH and that usually makes for bad baseball.
I guess that the core of the 2013 Twins is in place and spring training will have a few battles for the open positions but I just find it hard to get really enthused about this bunch of players. To me it seems like the Twins are afraid to pick a side, either go young or get some better experienced players and try to field a competitive team. I feel bad that Ron Gardenhire finds himself in the position he does but life is not always fair and this team could easily end Gardy’s reign as a Twins manager and I think that will be a bad thing for both the team and the fans. There has been speculation that Paul Molitor is waiting in the wings to take over as the Twins new skipper but I for one hope that does not happen. Molitor has no managerial experience and does not seem to be the least bit interested in earning a manager’s job by working his way up the minor league chain but instead appears to send a message that his hall of fame playing career qualifies him to be the Twins next manager. I don’t see Molitor as a great communicator or even a great teacher for that matter. What has Molitor done over the years to qualify for the job? Nothing and I think hiring Molitor to manage the Twins would set this franchise back for years to come.
In spite of their new ballpark and the 2014 All-Star game on the horizon the Twins are dropping like a rock in the eyes of many Minnesota fans with the basketball Timbewolves moving up, the Vikings making the playoffs, and maybe even the NHL players and owners will agree to a new deal soon and the Wild will once again be relevant. There are only so many entertainment dollars to go around and if the Minnesota Twins don’t put a decent product on the field they will be left in the dust. Todays Twins fans are not the Twins fans of the past and will not tolerate the bad play of past Twins teams, they will simply find another place to spend their money and it will not be fun to watch the Twins play to a meager fan base with a lot of empty seats in Target Field. Twins management seems to have forgotten the old business axiom that it is easier to keep your existing customers than it is to get new customers.
Even their August 2012 announced move to the Pohlad owned FM station KTWN 96.3 station in 2013 seems like a slap in the face to Twins fans. Many baseball fans listen to Twins games on the radio and now even that access may be harder to find. In July of 2012 KTWN did not even make the Twins Cities top 20 radio stations with a measly 1.4% share of the listening public. Both of the previous stations that carried the Twins games since the team moved to Minnesota back in 1961 WCCO from 1961-2007 and KSTP from 2007-2012 had an AM transmitter power rating of 50,ooo watts and while the Twins new home at KTWN is an FM signal, its transmitter power is a paltry 19,000 watts. The WCCO signal was rated to extend about 90 miles, the KSTP signal was rated for 60 miles during the day and 30 miles at night and the Twins new home at KTWN is rated for 20 miles.
I know all this sounds depressing but that is the sad and sorry state of the Twins as they prepare for the 2013 season. The team has done nothing that I can see to get the fan base excited about the up-coming baseball season and that disappoints me. I will follow the Twins in 2013 but sadly, many former Twins fans will not. Hard as I try, I don’t see the Twins finishing anywhere except in the AL Central division basement once again this coming season.
Camilo Pascual elected to Twins Hall of Fame
The Minnesota Twins announced yesterday that former pitcher and five-time All-Star Camilo Pascual has been elected to the club’s Hall of Fame. Pascual will become the 24th member of the Twins Hall of Fame when he is inducted during a special on field pre-game ceremony July 14, when the Twins host the Oakland Athletics at Target Field.
Pascual, one of the “Twins 50 Greatest Players” made his major league debut on April 15, 1954 as a Washington Senator with 3 innings of scoreless relief at Fenway Park in a 6-1 loss to the Boston Red Sox. Pascual went on to pitch in 529 big league games over 18 seasons and posted a 174-170 won/lost record while pitching for the Washington Senators from 1954-1960, The Minnesota Twins from 1961-1966, the Washington Senators from 1967-1969, the Cincinnati Reds in 1969, the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1970 and the Cleveland Indians in 1971.
Camilo was the first ever Twins All-Star in 1961 and has appeared in more All-Star games than any pitcher in franchise history since 1950, playing in five of six games from 1959-64 and in four straight from 1959-61. He went 145-141 with a 3.66 ERA during his time with the Twins and Senators, ranking second on the franchise All-Time list in shutouts (31), third in strikeouts (1,885), fourth in innings pitched (2,465.0) and fifth in wins (145) and starts (331). He went 88-57 with a 3.31 ERA in six seasons in a Twins uniform from 1961-66, ranking third in shutouts (18), seventh in strikeouts (994), and eighth in wins (88), innings pitched (1284.2) and starts (179). He was the Twins first ever 20-game winner, recording 20 victories in 1962 and 21 in 1963, while leading the American League in complete games, shutouts and strikeouts in nearly every season from 1959-63.
Camilo Pascual is the younger brother of former major league pitcher Carlos Pascual, whose nickname of “Potato” earned Camilo the nickname of “Little Potato”. The “Little Potato” was a workhorse pitcher for the Washington/Minnesota pitching staffs and he possessed good control with an excellent fastball but it was his outstanding curveball that was his signature pitch. Ted Williams was quoted as saying that it was easily the best curveball in baseball at the time. Although Pascual was a workhorse, stories have been told that Camilo enjoyed taking an annual “mini vacation” via the DL each season. Pascual also served as the Minnesota Twins pitching coach from 1978-1980. Pascual has lived in Miami since 1960 and since 1989 he has worked as international scout for the Oakland Athletics, New York Mets, and the Los Angeles Dodgers, for whom he currently scouts Venezuela. Among the major leaguers Pascual has signed are Jose Canseco, Alex Cora, Omar Daal, Miguel Cairo, and Franklin Gutierrez.
Pascual is one of only five players to have played against the Athletics in Philadelphia, Kansas City, and Oakland. Harmon Killebrew is another member of that select group. Camilo is also one of only seven players to play for both the original and expansion Washington Senators teams. The others were Don Mincher, Pedro Ramos, Johnny Schaive, Roy Sievers, Zoilo Versalles, and Hal Woodeshick.
The Havana-native ranks 55th on baseball’s All-Time wins list and is a member of the Latino Baseball Hall of Fame and Cuban Baseball Hall of Fame, ranking second to only Luis Tiant in strikeouts among Cuban born major leaguers. In addition to being selected as a member of the Twins 50 Greatest Players in 2010, Camilo was also selected to the Twins 25th anniversary team in 1986 and the 40th anniversary team in 2000. At 74, Pascual, one of the original Minnesota Twins becomes the oldest living member of the Twins Hall of Fame. The Twins Hall of Fame membership is permanently displayed in the Hall of Fame Gallery on the Target Field Suite Level as well as on Target Plaza.
This selection of Pascual to the Twins Hall of Fame is well deserved and it should have taken place a long time ago. We at Twins Trivia would like to add our congratulations to Camilo on this great honor. Good things come to those who wait but Camilo should not have had to wait this long. You can check out the entire Twins Hall of Fame here.
I grew up listening to WCCO as they broadcast Minnesota Twins games and Camilo Pascual was always one of my favorite players because you knew when Camilo pitched that the Twins had a good chance of winning the game. Back then I could not attend many games in person and hardly any games were on TV so the radio was the place to be if you followed baseball and the Minnesota Twins.
Twins extend deal with ESPN 1500
August 10, 2010 – The Twins announced today that that they have extended their agreement with 1500 ESPN Twin Cities to be the team’s Twin Cities metropolitan area radio affiliate through the 2012 season. The two-year agreement with Hubbard Broadcasting, which owns the station, allows for 1500 ESPN to broadcast all Twins regular and postseason games and at least 25 Spring Training games.
I think it is a terrible decision to extend the contract with 1500 ESPN. Many Twins fans listen to the games on the radio and there are many more that would listen if the station could provide a signal that went out farther than 1500 ESPN’s property lines. As many others have said for years, the signal strength of the station is just plain terrible. I don’t understand why if the Twins want to be first class organization why they go with a second tier minor league radio station. They have a top notch ballpark and a very good team and still they go the cheap route and put their games on 1500 ESPN. Why not go back to WCCO were they belong? WCCO’s signal is so much better in quality and strength that there really is no comparison.
In addition to a bad signal, the pregame and post game announcers leave a lot to be desired. When I listen to 1500ESPN I feel like I am listening to a bunch of announcers that are still in broadcasting school learning how to become professional announcers. 1500 ESPN pre and post game announcers don’t seem to understand baseball at all, I have never seen a bigger bunch of band-wagon jumpers then at 1500 ESPN. If the team goes into a short slump, the announcers rip everyone in site, if the Twins win a couple of games in a row you would think the Twins are the best team that baseball has ever seen.
I can’t believe that the Twins did this, going from WCCO to 1500 ESPN a few years ago was a terrible mistake but here they had an opportunity to fix the problem and they still dropped the ball. I would love to hear why the Twins keep choosing 1500 ESPN over WCCO. The money can’t be that much different, what’s the real reason Mr. St. Peter?
How sad is it that less than 10 miles due west of Target Field and I can barely get a signal as I walk on the Luce Line trail?